As If It Was the Last In the Series
Iwata: Can you tell me about the things that first came to mind when you thought about developing a new Smash Bros. game?
Sakurai: I felt that a large premise of the project was that this was not a series that would continue indefinitely. After all, it wasn’t possible to keep on increasing the characters that are entitled to take the field in Smash Bros. And even if you try to utilize new familiar characters that resonate with the fans, you can’t get each and every gamer to be happy. Just like its predecessor then, we decided to design the game as if it was the last one in the series.
Iwata: I see.
Sakurai: At any rate, considering all our available options, what would the optimal game look like? If this was our last chance to mobilize all our forces, what features would be most appealing to our gamers? What would make our customers happy? This line of thinking was the main key to development.
For First-time Gamers
Iwata: Putting it another way, I think games like Wii Sports and Wii Fit, games that anyone can enjoy, are a good thing for Smash Bros. Brawl. Without games like these, there would be those that otherwise not come into contact with a form of entertainment like gaming.
Sakurai: Right.
Iwata: Though not everyone who picks up a controller for the very first time because of games like Wii Sports or Wii Fit will play Smash Bros. Brawl, there will most certainly be those that do. And among them, I’m sure there will be those who will find Smash Bros. interesting too. Games like Wii Sports or Wii Fit will draw people in through their appeal to the senses, and this, in turn, will develop their interest in games like Smash Bros. Brawl. I think that is the true meaning of expanding the gaming population. Of course, I’m not trying to say that Smash Bros. isn’t meant for beginners and, in fact, development of the original Smash Bros. began with the idea of making a game that people unfamiliar to gaming could come to enjoy it just as much as everyone else within the first ten minutes of play.
Sakurai: Right. That is the main concept behind the Smash Bros. series, and the feature is more well-defined in Smash Bros. Brawl.
Iwata: Also, I think that fundamentally, we shouldn’t try and separate the casual gamers from the core gamers. After all, everyone starts off as a casual gamer. Some of these casual gamers will end up falling in love with gaming. Despite this fact though, I think that people too often treat them as entities that are inherently different.
Sakurai: Absolutely.
Iwata: I think this is because we ignore the passage of time and tend to take a snapshot solely of the present when we talk about these things. But it’s different. People that love games and are really good at games were once, at some point in the past, casual gamers themselves. That’s why it’s so important to make sure that you continue to bring in new gamers. If you don’t, there will come a day when you don’t have any more customers.
Sakurai: I agree.
Iwata: Now that I think of it, that’s something you started saying when you designed Kirby. You were able to make a game like Kirby in order to get people interested in gaming and that it would be a type of game you could recommend to first-time gamers.
Sakurai: Wow, that brings back some memories! (laughs)
Iwata: I don’t think you’ve ever let go of that concept…not even once. Actually, this is one of the more unusual facts about this man we call Sakurai…even though he’s an extremely skilled gamer, he always takes great lengths to develop games that first-time gamers can pick up without hesitation. Generally speaking, skilled gamers tend to make games for themselves. This being the case, how did you come about your particular mindset?
Sakurai: Well, I think the first thing that I should clear up is that lately my gaming skill has mellowed down a bit.
Iwata: Right.
Sakurai: And, this is something that I often told you back in the day, but before coming to HAL, I played a lot of different games and tried to look at games on the market from a variety of angles. What I felt at the time, just like you said earlier, is that games you could recommend to a first-time gamer didn’t exist. At the time, complexity was escalating and the only games available were ones that really challenged its players.
Iwata: Every game was focused on solving something. Shooting games required you to evade hails of gunfire and fighting games kept growing more and more difficult.
Sakurai: Right. So it’s only natural that I had some doubts about games at the time.
Iwata: Well, it may be natural in retrospect, but I think the fact that you have been saying that all along is pretty substantial.
Sakurai: Well, gaming for me is not about making games that I want to play.
Iwata: Right.
Sakurai: Ultimately, gaming should be about the customers and I couldn’t figure out at the time why there were so few games made with the customers in mind. I thought it strange at the time and I feel the same way today.
Iwata: You know, listening to what you said called to mind how we worked on Kirby and started the Smash Bros. series to make it much easier for first-time users to get into gaming, and that making games that everyone can play doesn’t mean making simple games. Working on games like this with you had a big impact in defining how I would come to view gaming. In other words, my thoughts on expanding the gaming population, targeting gamers age five to ninety-five or refusing to think of gamers in terms of age, sex or gaming experience…I think the roots of the ideals I espouse are tied to our experience together, and I feel they were inspired by you. Of course, a mantra of mine is that of the experiences I’ve had, there’s nothing that was put to waste. What I learned from you, however, is of especially great value.
Sakurai: Speaking of shared roots, we were both surprised in regards to the similarities between the direction of the Smash Bros. Brawl network and the Wi-Fi connection proposed by Nintendo.
Iwata: That’s right. That was a surprise alright. Why don’t we talk about it next?
Sakurai: Let’s.
Iwata: What did you think of the fact that the platform to be used was the Wii?
Sakurai: Well, first of all, when I heard about the Revolution, or Wii concept at the E3 in 2005, I had this feeling that games with features that anyone can master, like Wii Sports, would become the new main attraction. Of course I thought there would be more conventional games too, but I thought that easily enjoyable games would become the next big thing.
Iwata: Making games that broke with convention was the key concept for the Revolution.
Sakurai: Right. I thought this direction was pretty spectacular and heartily applauded the flexible approach you were proposing. At the same time, however, I didn’t think that Smash Bros. had to fully adhere to this approach. Rather, I thought that I should remain cognizant of this new concept Nintendo had developed, but then think about what development path was right for the new Smash Bros.
Iwata: I see.
Sakurai: Of course, I think there was a possibility of taking Smash Bros. in a more casual-gaming direction. For example, we could make the art style simpler or make it possible to use Miis. However, with the various titles that the Wii was to offer, I felt that people were looking for something different. That’s the reason I decided in very early stages of development that the Wii pointer and motion movements would not be a primary feature of the game.
Iwata: The Nunchuk controller can be used to play the retail version of Smash Bros. Brawl, but it’s not highlighted as the main controller.
Sakurai: That’s right. Ultimately, the game supports the Wii Remote, the Classic Controller, the Nunchuk and the Nintendo GameCube controller, and having support for these four controllers was something that we set from the start of the planning stages. However, the purpose of designing Smash Brothers Brawl was not Wii-like play that utilizes the pointer. If we had decided to adhere to the new approach offered by the Wii, I think it would have been possible to design the game with more unconventional controls. However, in the end, I set aside several ideas as I thought it was important to dedicate our resources to developing what our gamers were looking for.
Iwata: I see.
Sakurai: In regards to whether or not Smash Bros. Brawl was moving in the same direction as the Wii, I decided purposefully not to worry about this question and told myself that this would be the role of Smash Bros. Brawl in regards to the Wii. This is a decision that I made very clear in the first project planning document. (See document)
Iwata: Even though I was responsible for the Wii and setting this new direction, I thought the worst thing we could do is keep proposing the same games. Stated simply, I think it’s important to have variety. Back in the days that we worked at HAL Laboratory we used to say that we won’t stand a chance if we do what Miyamoto-san might do, so let’s do something he wouldn’t, right?
Sakurai: Right. (laughs)
Iwata: I think you can see the roots of my ideology flourishing at Nintendo today and I’ll be very happy if this way of thinking continues to expand the range of products that Nintendo offers.
Sakurai: It’s best to have both approaches, right? If I had been at Nintendo, I may have made a Smash Bros. Brawl that was more in line with the Wii. As a result, I feel, in some ways, that my decision-making wasn’t the very best…particularly as gamers readily tire of games these days. Smash Bros. Brawl may not be effective as it tries to perfect the experience of conventional games.
Iwata: Without a doubt, the rapid speed at which consumers make purchases and then grow tired of them is an area of game development in which the balance has been thoroughly upset. Some time ago we were able to say "if we invest this much effort to make this type of product, gamers should get this much fun play time out of it." Now, however, these odds are changing and there is a feeling that the product won’t hold the gamers attention unless you continually design more game contents and add more depth.
Sakurai: That’s why I think games like Wii Sports and Wii Fit were a step in the right direction. I’m not saying that these games lack depth, but these games proposed an unprecedented line of thinking and broke from the old "more contents and more depth" philosophy.
Iwata: Right, but that absolutely doesn’t mean that we did this because we thought development would be easy. An astounding amount of effort was actually put into the fundamental development process of these titles. We’re investing our efforts in other areas besides graphics and data capacity. However, as I mentioned earlier, if all our games mirror games like Wii Sports or Wii Fit, our gamers would soon grow bored. It’s truly a division of duties.
Sakurai: I agree.
